Tom:
Thank you for
taking the time to consider my e-mail. Last year me and my partners
built ________ first and only indoor socccer facility. The truth
is that I convinced them to tear down 4 of their competion racquetball
courts inside their club and put in a 4v4 indoor soccer field.
We have since been running youth soccer training programs, leagues,
and one day events. About 3,000 people have been through our
doors and we are slowly growing. The only draw back is that
we are located inside an athletic club so it is difficult at
times to contain the soccer players to appropriate areas and
keep them from wondering through the club and using the facilities.
(indoor soccer is a seperate entity and members do not enjoy
recepricating services). Attached is a picture to give you an
idea of the size of the field with people in it. It is 80 feet
long X 40 feet wide with 20 foot high ceilings.
The reason for
seeking you out is to see if you are intrested helping me streamline
operations and tighten the management of _______? I know if
you look at a picture long enough, all you see is one spot.
I don't want that to happen. So I am seeking expert advice.
Are you interested?
Best regards ________
I'm not sure that I have the wandering soccer players answer for you. Strangely enough we were just discussing a couple of like issues this evening. At one of our facilities in Houston, Southwest Indoor Soccer, they called me tonight to say that vandalism throughout the facility was picking up, and despite constantly patrolling, they were growing weary of the damage. We're going to try and seal off as many areas to the facility as possible. We are also going to put a couple of signs up that if you are found in unauthorized places or involved in vandalism you'll be banned from the facility. We'll place the signs strategically at the entryway to unauthorized places. Much of the damage that is done to our facilities is in the bathrooms and there are I'm sure some privacy issues regarding putting cameras in bathrooms.
One rule of thumb that you can count on is this. Wherever you have empty spaces that do not serve a useful purpose only bad things can happen. If you have dead space, nothing good can happen there. If only bad things can happen, I try to seal off those parts of the building. Fire codes and safety make it more difficult but that's your challenge.
It's not just that they don't have exchange programs from one area to the next, it's that they are totally different kinds of people and don't mingle very well. I don't have that solved yet other than to make their entrances different and make their common space as minimal as possible.
Because we also haven't found the answer to the open space problem we've been designing the buildings instead of inheriting what exists on the marketplace and improving slightly on each new building by building them from the ground up.
You are so right about the one spot. I sometimes go around and visit all of our facilities and mention to the managers what I see that is out of place. Then I would come back a month later to the facility that I was running and notice all kinds of things that were wrong that I hadn't noticed on a daily basis. The weeds get just a 16th of an inch longer each day and I didn't notice that it looked bad.
I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS
FOR YOU
1. Are you the General Contractor when you build?
No. I usually wind
up being a sub for the interior.
2. Do you have a preferred supplier for your pre-fab building?
You're better off
to let the builder or contractor find the supplier for the metal
building. In every instance they have gotten a better deal than
I have.
3. Are your total costs still coming in at around $20 per
building foot?
They have risen to an average of between $22 and $23. UPDATE 22 Jan 2002: $25 to $27. UPDATE 1 Dec 06: $27 to $65.
4. Timing is a big concern. I want to be open by Nov 1 (could
slip to Thanksgiving but I won't tell any contractors that)
and this leaves only 6 months from start to finish including
design and approvals. What has your typical timeframe been (I
realize local approvals can be a wild card)? If I can't open
by Dec 1, I would probably wait until next year.
I wish I had control over when I was going to be open. I'm hardly ever right. I've gotten permits as quick as 6 months and as long as 28 months. There is no formula. There are so many little bastards trying to screw up your deal. I'd open (and I do) when the building is ready. Whenever that is.
In my case, once I know that I can build the building I buy the land. I don't have all my permits yet but I don't want to see the land slip away. So the decision for me is to let $200,000 to $400,000 just set there vacant for six months waiting for the next winter. I have to recycle my money quicker than that. I have some mitigating circumstances that you may not have. I build my own fields. I only have one guy to do that with. I can't have him building six fields within 30 days of a winter opening. He builds a field and then move on to the next deal. Second I have managers in training at current facilities. I can't leave them on the payroll for eight months or I'm overstaffed. We choose to open whenever we can.
Should we begin from the "kick-off" using a payroll co. &/or an accountant? Is this best for long term priorities and short term peace of mind?
I didn't use a payroll company when I started, but it turned into a problem. I do now and if I did it over again I would use a payroll company. It's about $70 per month.
We are hoping to get approved for $175k-200k (once more collateral is found). There are a few possible "good" locations very close to our highway and our freeway (less than 1.5 miles) but not necessarily the best in appearance as they are in an industrial area of town. Here's the advice we are seeking...what is most effective in keeping away those who have the $800-1m available to build a new better facility. You are highly in favor of building, we agree, but financially we are lacking at this time.
I previously wished there was a way to keep competition out. I don't anymore. I enjoy competition. Some of the cities we're in we dominate. In those cities where we have competition we do a much better job of treating the customer right. It's because there is so much competition in San Diego that we know how to take better defensive or offensive steps depending on where we are in the marketplace.
But for us at least, we get entrenched in our ways. We know things that work and we keep doing them over again. Competitors shake things up and make us rethink our position. All good for the customer. I don't think you can keep them out. All I've done is start building the new facility to increase the cost for entry to potential competitors.
AYSO in our area charges a "per player" fee ($49). You charged "per team" ($450 last I played). Another arena I visited charged a "per player" fee. Do you still find the "per team" fee the best method for adults and youth? Or is youth fee schedule different?
Hopefully AYSO is not the dominant youth league in your area. AYSO is recreational and just won't pay the dollars. Got to find the competitive soccer leagues for youth. That's who pays the dollar.
For sure it's team fee. If you charge by the player you'll get cliques that hang around together and only six of them will pay $45.00 each. Now you got $270 per team and I got $450. Plus, since there are only six of them, somebody won't be able to make it now and then and they will get blown out. Then somebody else won't show up and it will be a forfeit. Then their opponent who got shorted a game is going to want a credit for next season.
Last question...is it wise and/or ok to build the arena one's self (purchase boards, plexi, etc from local businesses) to save money? Or go with the pros?
I don't know your craftmanship skill level. Mine sucks, but fortunately we have McGyver, Felipe Rodriguez who has built our facilities for us since the very beginning. I can't advise you here I just don't know your quality expectations. We bought the first one we did, and then learned from that one. We've built all our own since then.
I notice that most of your buildings are 110' wide even with two fields. Is it less expensive to build long rather than side to side clear span?
It's not much different either way but if they are side to side you have a seam running between buildings which are notorious in eventually becoming a leakage conduit. Maybe five years, maybe ten, but you have found a place to force water from two buildings. It's just a matter of time. I think you do save a little more side to side. You don't want any extra room anywhere in the building. I try to fill in every little space to keep kids and parents from kicking the ball around in the building.
What type of play do you have on your mini fields? Is it popular and do you fill all of that time?
UPDATED 20 JAN 00: We've been putting in mini fields for about three or four years now. We don't generally put them in however until the demand on our big field is overfowing. It takes time to build them up and it's the big field that you need the income on. It does work but takes a couple of years to get to the break even stage for us. UPDATED 1 Dec 06: We don't do mini fields anymore but may occasionally do two fields.
What is desired roof height at eves and peak ? 25 ft?
We do 24 foot eaves
and 12 to 1 cut to the middle.
How much bleacher seating capacity do you aim for?
Usually I have enough room for three rows of seating about 140 feet long each. You can figure a butt takes up about 24 inches so you can cram 70 people on a row or 210 total. If you can find the high school bleachers that fold into themselves you can get alot more rows and seating than that.
Do you have arcade games?
Rarely. Managers choice. Depends on your population base, sophistication, and time of the year. I personally hate them. I was a prison guard for eight years and am still a little bit jumpy. I sleep in the buildings alot of the time, because 1. I'm cheap, 2. I get a feel for the buildings, 3. I audit the books and go through the standings and so forth after everyone leaves and goes home, looking for any indications that things are wrong or right, and I can't tell you how many times I've woke up at 4am or 5am and been walking to the bathroom and walked by one of those freaking Karate machines or Mortal Combat and had the voice start screaming kung fu crap. It scares the hell out of me. I'm never ready for it. They should be against the law.
You mentioned in one e-mail that you have 200 soccer teams on one field. How do you fit all those games into one week? Does that include a mini field?
Today we have several facilities with over 200 teams, not including mini field. It's a scheduling secret. Scheduling is a huge advantage for us. Though reading through all of the information that I put out you know that we are decent at what we do. There are 10 or 15 things that we're exceptional at and would hurt our competitive advantage by divulging how we do them.
My business is
called ____________ and I currently run indoor soccer leagues
in local gymnasiums. A competitor recently opened an indoor
facility, but its relatively small ( 120x65 ). In addition,
he cators to the 20% of hardcore play-every-day players, while
my market incompasses all talent levels. I am confident, to
be able to schedule 40 adult teams consistently for three sessions
during winter months.
With the opening of our proposed building this fall, where our
field is a little bit bigger than theirs we will begin recreational
youth leagues as well. The Boy's and Girl's Club has approximately
2500 children play outdoor soccer every summer. They do not
offer an indoor program........Our fee structure is somewhat
inflated to what you' re used to. The existing facility charges
$40 per player, in addition to a $400 team fee, which is usually
covered by a business sponsor. Children pay $75 and more for
outdoor programs, traditionally less expensive than indoor.
I believe, that I can enter the indoor field market with a superior
product, at a better price and still do well financially. (because
I also run the outdoor leagues, there is less pressure to market
the indoor facility during the summer)
Let me follow up on your reasoning. You want to build a facility a little bigger than that. Once that happens what do you think will happen to the facility that currently exists? Correct, it will be all but obsolete. Now let's pretend that you and I didn't meet on the net. A year from now, I show up and build a field 200x85, full size. What do you think will become of your facility? The madness doesn't stop just because it was you. You're obsolete as well. So while you minimized your overhead, you also minimized your chances of success and maximized the chances that someone will show up someday and build one larger than you.
Now let's change the scenario. You build a full size, nicely done facility, and manage it well. Now I show up in a year. I have to decide do I think I can beat you? Maybe? But is it worth the effort? Do I think your city will support two fields, no. Can I go to another city where there is no competition? Yes.
I'm going to get an email in a year from someone that will say there is a competitor in ___________ but he is relatively small 150x75 and he caters more to the recreational market............... their going to build a full size field............
You can't charge more per player, but you can put more players on the playing surface and there will be less injuries because people won't be crashing into each other. There won't be as many fouls because it won't be so crowded. The field wouldn't be a few feet longer, they would be 50 feet, one third larger than yours. That's a noticeable difference. I'd be arguing that I had the only regulation size field in ___________.
Tom: I have the
following questions for you:
1) What has been your experience with observatory decks and
the sale of beer and wine at indoor venues?
We don't do alcohol. Any place that is wasted space without a purpose, only bad things can happen. UPDATE 20 Jan 00: I was wrong. We merged with two facilities in OKC that had been serving beer at their location for 13 years. We kept it and it hasn't been a problem at all. Now we're experimenting with it in Austin. UPDATE 22 Jan 02: No problem at either location. We're awfully tight on controlling it however.
2) I am a firm
believer in utilizing upstairs space, s.a. areas above locker
rooms snack bars and ofiices. How do you feel about small living
quarters in a facility to house a "resident manager"?
This person would add to the building security as well as being
able to referee games or do other duties in return for free
living space and a modest salary.
I don't do upstairs space and any place people can go lay around and watch TV will automatically attract people to lay around and watch TV. I think you have to get away from the project sometimes. Living there is not good.
Is there such
thing as a remote control scoreboard?
I like your thought process. I have never been able to find a remote control scoreboard. I contacted Colorado Time Systems a few years ago and ask them to make one but they didn't think there was any demand. It doesn't eliminate the scorekeeper however. Someone has to collect player cards, mark the rosters, we keep track of who scored the goals and assists, fouls, two minute penalties, injuries, controlling the benches, retrieving ice for injured players, and shagging balls that escape from the playing field occasionally.
